RM Sotheby's Paris 6 Feb 2019 - 560 SEC 6.0 32v

[Peter72]

Result of the auction for the 560 SEC 6.0 32 V widebody from 1988: staggering €260,000 plus costs (12%). Fantastic result ! See here: https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/pa19 ... ody/733327


I was there, inspected the car, low mileage of 27.000 km, from Japan with Recaro seats. No AMG paperwork available. Repainted some years ago. From the youngtimers collection.

In the same auction the 500 SL 6.0 (W129) went for €39,000 plus costs.

[AMG5PT4]

Monster result. Trying to get to Amelia Island next month for the RM auction. They have another one of the Youngtimer's Collection widebody for sale. There is also another 2 from the same Seller at the Essen auction.

Pierre, how was the condition of the Paris car overall? Were you able to open it, look at the engine, interior, paint quality? Give us a condition report! Is the Paris car 040 or 199? Take any pics you can post? What was the AMG valve cover stamping serial #?

Can't wait to get my WB done. It will be a sight to behold!

Al

[Rick_AMG_Freak]

260k EUR for this
No one noticed that this car is a fake ??

[mercepor]

the price seems to me unreal
but the trend is ok....

[AMG5PT4]

I don't consider an AMG Japan widebody to be a fake. They were a licensed installer for AMG, no different than AMG Central in Chicago or Strattons in the UK. Personally, I prefer a documented AMG from Germany, but in reality AMG Germany did very few conversions of Gen II W126's. Let's face it - the vast majority of authentic AMG pre-merger cars from Germnay or elsewhere have no surviving AMG provenance. If the Japan widebody that just sold is a fake, someone went to extraordinary lengths to acquire and cobble together all the AMG bits to make that car.

[Macgod]

That's true most true AMG spec models are what you call orphan cars, without papers, but just look at Henric's WB which was done better than the original, I wonder how much his car would sell for!

[Rick_AMG_Freak]

OK, agreed, I'm not talking about "Germany vs Japan" things...
None of you, AMG specialists, much longer in this business than me, have found in this cars few details, which indicates it is a DIY ? Don't you know anything about the history of this specimen? It's not any barn find!!

[mercepor]

The prb with these 260k offer/bid is that they are fake. The car itself is irrelevant. Actually they (the seller and the buyer) are building "pedigree" for the car and the model.
An ex: lets imagine that Kuba is owning a nice WB. I know Kuba, he knows me and we agree that he will put his car for sale at Essen Technoclassica and I will bid for 300k. The people at Technoclassica will applaud and Kuba and me we will laughing loud. A year later the car is again on the market, for 228k only! And then Peter72 comes and buy it, because it is cheap. That will be the time when Kuba and me will open some Champagne....

The same apply to paintings, art collections,etc....

[AMG5PT4]

That's a dangerous scenario once you consider in the combined 20-25% commission RM us making on the sale @ 260k Euros. I'm not saying shill bidding can't exist in car auctions, but the cost to pull that off is very high. That's why shill budding is more prevalent in eBay and Bring a Trailer auctions - the cost to execute a shill is lower.

Reagarding Kuba's comment on the car's history, I recall there was an issue when for sale at the U.K. Dealer with engine displacement stamped on the valve cover 5.6 vs the claimed displacement of 6.0 in the auction description. Maybe the block was bored out to 100mm. Don't know. Vetting the car is up to the buyer, not me. If I were an interested bidder, then I would be much more in tuned to the car's provenance. There are 3-4 more widebody SEC's to be sold between Amelia and Essen. Condition differs between the cars, but will be interested to see the results. They can't shill bid that many offerings!

What I do know us I am liking the market action for these cars. Especially the value of my documented AMG sedan and widebody.

[Rick_AMG_Freak]

I think Mercepor's (Hi Laszlo! ) scenario is very possible - let us remember, that's this car couldn't find new owner since 2016 for 110 000 GBP, and its around 125000 EUR, and now is sold for 2x more? Buahahahaha...
I think all of you realize that today "Pre merger AMG market" is a big hole full of shit and speculators... I also want to increase value of my cars, but IMO something is wrong...

[AMG5PT4]

Stock markets in general took big drops in 4th Q 2018. Investors/speculators have been using cars as investments at times. Risky! There is substantial risk to pre-merger AMG cars and provenance. I own 2 and the provenance on my cars is solid. These cars would be much more valuable if AMG would open up their archives of cars modified. That would clear a lot of fake cars and make the real ones increase. Alpina and RUF have their records and verify cars, but they are still independent of BMW/Porsche.

[vdubpower]

very interesting discussion...

funny how even with this being a japan version "fake" and unverified it still sold for more than the alpinas

[AMG5PT4]

that's a good observation re: Alpinas vs AMGs! I think the quad cam 32v AMG engine carries a lot of weight in the collector market.

[Peter72]

I had not seen my post had generated such a lively debate !

Al, yes I have been able to open the car, sit in it, open the hood.
The interior, well, given the odometer with 27,000km, does not look that fresh. The traditional extended AMG wood pieces are cracked, additional Japanese AmG wood we are used to seeing on Japan cars is mostly cracked as well and needs to be removed, the leather of the Recaros (driver side) is dry and slightly cracked as well,... I have a W126 with 35,000 and it looks still very much new inside.

Under the hood, it is a clearly 4V engine, the AMG engine stamping says 5,6L, the sticker however says 6.0L. Since the cylinder heads have the additional piece for oil circulation it can likely be said that it is a 6.0L engine.

The car has repainted according to the file for 11.000 euros ( or £?) a few years back. No AMG paperwork available and actually no history available at all. RM would of course not give any guarantee that the car is original.

Under the car it looks quite clean I must say, it seems in good condition. However not easy to see as the room was rather dark and the car is low

Here are some pictures

[Peter72]

A few more

[Peter72]

Was that car worth 300.000€ with costs ? I do not know whether it is all real or fake, the only thing I can note is that there are 2 or 3 more wide body at the Essen sale and clearly this trade sets the bar for the next ones, assuming they are in the same condition. If the prices in Essen are similar then it can hardly be a series of fakes or it takes a lot of money to put it up... the amount of auction fees is 36k€ for the car sold in Paris.
When you look at the prices achieved by the Alpina B9/B7 or B12, the trend for youngtimers whether AmG or Alpina is clearly there, it cannot be all fake. Or is the price for a Alfa Romeo 8C achieved at Artcurial last night (16.3 million €) also fake ?

By the way the E500 limited at the RM auction was as new, the other E500 was much less nice and of uncertain heritage, the SL500 6.0 AMG looked ... used ... the Alpina B12 6.0 limousine as new, the B12 coupe really nice...

[vdubpower]

Is the economy gauge supposed to be at the right in red while car off

[Peter72]

Well I guess this gauge in always in the red in an AMG

But the answer is yes, this seems normal.

[lowphat]

That car looks very, very tired

[Rick_AMG_Freak]

When you look at the prices achieved by the Alpina B9/B7 or B12, the trend for youngtimers whether AmG or Alpina is clearly there, it cannot be all fake. Or is the price for a Alfa Romeo 8C achieved at Artcurial last night (16.3 million €) also fake ?

I agree, but there is no possibility to make fake Alfa 8C, but fake AMG parts everywhere It's the matter of "trends" - AMG "trendy" level is top of the tops now

[AMG5PT4]

Another widebody sold a couple days ago at the RM auction in Amelia island for $160k plus commission. Similar to the Paris car, except for the ugly TV monitor add-on the the dashboard that was converted to a modern stereo unit. If anyone saw this car in person, please report on its condition!

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am19 ... ody/733351

Two more WB's are set to sell at the RM auction in Essen next month from the same Seller.

[Peter72]

$160k is about half of the Paris price....